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Public housing residents who traded their gas stoves for electric induction ones saw improved air quality compared with their neighbors, according to the new results of a pilot program across 20 apartments at a complex in The Bronx.
Run by the nonprofit WE ACT for Environmental Justice, in partnership with the New York City Housing Authority, the Association for Energy Efficiency, Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health and Berkeley Air Monitoring, the experiment involved switching out gas stoves for induction units in 10 apartments at 1417 Watson Avenue, as THE CITY reported last February.
After a 10-month run, the air quality in those households was compared to 10 apartments still using gas stoves.
The households with electric ovens showed a 35% decrease in daily concentrations of the pollutant nitrogen dioxide and a nearly 43% difference in daily concentrations of carbon monoxide, according to the study results released Tuesday.
The findings come on the heels of a national frenzy over possible federal regulations of gas stoves.
Shavon Marino, 34, received an induction stove at the start of the experiment and although she had to learn how to control the heat without knobs, she quickly grew to appreciate the oven. Marino said she was particularly impressed with how fast it cooked her food and the ease of cleaning the flat stovetop.
And as the mom of a 7-year-old, she didn’t take the air quality improvements for granted, either.
“It cooks better and just for the safety of my daughter, that’s why I like the stove,” Marino said. “As she gets older, I think this stove would be a great teaching tool for my daughter.”
Traditional indoor gas stoves burn methane, a planet-warming greenhouse gas more potent at trapping heat than carbon dioxide. But beyond the larger climate concerns, gas stoves can pose immediate health risks to people in a household.
Previous research has shown that the pollutants released when turning on a gas stove are associated with causing or worsening respiratory illnesses.
An alarming December 2022 study estimated that 18.8% of childhood asthma cases in New York might be prevented if households didn’t have gas stoves.
A Bloomberg News report following that study indicated that the head of the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission was considering banning gas stoves across the country — but the agency later said that they were only looking into slight regulation.
In the Bronx, in addition to continuous air monitoring, researchers measured pollutants while preparing a “standardized” meal of steamed broccoli, spaghetti with tomato sauce and chocolate chip cookies. They made the meal three times each in six households — two with gas stoves and two with induction.
The researchers found that, while cooking using a gas stove, nitrogen dioxide concentrations were nearly three times as much when using an induction stove. In fact, measurements of nitrogen dioxide concentrations in the kitchens with gas stoves reached levels above what the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency considers “unhealthy for sensitive groups.”
During the cooking tests, “an induction cooking household’s pollution didn’t change at all,” said Michael Johnson, technical director at the Berkeley Air Monitoring Group. “It’s another data point we’re seeing that reinforces this narrative that cooking with gas increases levels of NO2 [nitrogen dioxide] and other pollutants in your home to levels that are often unhealthy.”
Beyond stoves, other sources of pollutants like nearby gas boilers and cars also affected the levels of pollutants in the apartments studied, researchers said.
Misbath Daouda, a PhD candidate at Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health who worked on the study, noted the health benefits of overhauling an entire building’s worth of fossil fuel-powered appliances.
“The transition would need to not only focus on gas stoves as a single appliance, but look at other systems that need to be replaced or improved in those homes to improve air quality and also meet carbon emission reduction goals — and that would include heating systems,” Daouda said.
A full-building transition would greatly decrease the risk of fires and accidents from people using their gas stoves to heat their homes in the winter, she added. Newer electric stoves with batteries would still be usable if the power failed.
NYCHA is preparing to install heat pumps in all apartments in the 96-unit Bronx, as well as a new electrified hot water system.

“The collaboration with WE ACT has helped NYCHA steer its decarbonization commitments, recognizing the clear air quality benefits of electrified cooking,” said NYCHA spokesperson Nekoro Gomes. “We continue to strive for wider implementation of this technology and we are thrilled to see the residents of 1471 Watson enjoying their new induction stoves.”
Switching to electric appliances can raise some concerns about expensive utility bills. The researchers estimated that operating an induction stove would cost about $6 more per month on electricity bills. But households that only pay for cooking gas would see their gas bills zero out, allowing for a monthly cost saving of about $11, the study found.
“Everyone deserves to live in a healthy home, regardless of your income, and regardless of the kind of housing that you live in,” said Sonal Jessel, WE ACT’s director of policy. “It’s ultimately really important that we’re finding pathways to ensure that as we are transitioning, it’s affordable and attainable for all populations.”
Now that the pilot program is complete, residents in the 10 control apartments can have induction stoves installed.
“They were impatient to get them,” Daouda said with a laugh. And no one who received an induction stove as part of the program asked for their old gas stove back.
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When the Crawford coal plant in Chicago’s Little Village neighborhood closed in 2012, residents hailed it as a victory for public health and environmental justice. But now a Target warehouse sits in place of the coal plant, with a constant stream of diesel trucks posing a new health threat and source of greenhouse gas emissions.
The neighborhood is just one example, local leaders and statewide advocates say, of why Illinois should adopt rules and programs moving toward electrification of medium- and heavy-duty trucks — starting with the Advanced Clean Trucks rule pioneered by California and now on the books in seven coastal states.
“Because of past decisions going back 170 years, we are without a doubt the freight and rail hub of North America — these freight facilities aren’t going anywhere,” said José Acosta, senior transportation policy analyst for the Little Village Environmental Justice Organization. LVEJO led the fight to close the city’s two coal plants and fought against the construction of the warehouse on the coal plant site.
“If that’s the case, how do we mitigate all the impacts of it?” Acosta added. “The most pressing impact is the air pollution impact, the threat of PM2.5” — fine particulate matter — “nitrogen oxide and other things that have an impact on community health. That’s why it’s so important to electrify fleets.”
LVEJO is among the coalition of environmental, community and labor groups called NET-Z demanding the state adopt the Advanced Clean Trucks rule, or ACT. The rule would mandate that electric or hydrogen fuel cell vehicles make up an increasing percentage of heavy- and medium-duty trucks sold in the state. With different benchmarks for different types of vehicles, the rule would mean almost all new trucks and delivery vans would be zero-emissions by 2040. Given fleet turnover, experts estimate this means almost all trucks on the roads would be zero-emissions by 2050.
The coalition is also calling for the adoption of the Heavy-Duty Omnibus Rule, which would mandate stricter nitrogen oxide emissions controls on new fossil fuel trucks. Meanwhile, a bill introduced in the state legislature would ask the Illinois Environmental Protection Agency to offer $200,000 vouchers for the purchase of class 7 or 8 large trucks, provided a diesel truck is scrapped in return.
“It is not like all the trucks sold have to be electric” immediately under the Advanced Clean Trucks rule, noted Illinois clean energy advocate J.C. Kibbey of the Natural Resources Defense Council. “It’s a very gradual ramp,” and the omnibus emissions reduction rule could be “the peanut butter to the ACT’s jelly,” reducing emissions from fossil fuel trucks as the transition to zero emissions plays out.
In May, the Respiratory Health Association published a study showing that Illinois ranks fifth of all states in the number of deaths per capita attributed to diesel pollution. And 12 Illinois counties, most of them in the Chicago area, are among the top 9% of counties nationwide for exposure to fine particulate matter from diesel.
“People are getting sick and dying from what they’re breathing from the tailpipes,” said Brian Urbaszewski, environmental health programs director for the Respiratory Health Association. “And global warming is happening — when you look at who gets hurt most or first by those increasing extreme weather events, it’s going to disproportionately hit those lower-income vulnerable communities.”
Cleaning up trucks is also an environmental justice issue for workers in warehouses and other sites with heavy truck traffic. Warehouse Workers for Justice, an organization that has long fought for better conditions for workers in Chicago-area warehouses, is a leader of the NET-Z coalition.
So far coastal states — California, Washington, Oregon, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts and North Carolina — have adopted the Advanced Clean Trucks rule, and 10 other states have signed memoranda of understanding agreeing to similar provisions. Illinois could be the first Midwest state to adopt the measure.
A study commissioned by the Natural Resources Defense Council and Union of Concerned Scientists found that medium- and heavy-duty vehicles make up only 7% of the vehicles on the road in Illinois, but account for more than a third of their greenhouse gas emissions and about two-thirds of nitrogen oxide and fine particulate matter (PM2.5) emissions.
The NRDC-UCS study used modeling to estimate that the least aggressive of three possible scenarios — the adoption of California’s Advanced Clean Trucks rule — would result in “up to 310 fewer premature deaths and 347 fewer hospital visits from breathing polluted air.” The study also found massive fuel savings to vehicle fleets and savings to electric customers, since the increased electricity sales for vehicle charging could help utilities lower residential rates. “Under the ACT scenario, by 2050 annual cost savings for Illinois fleets are estimated to be $1.2 billion, and annual bill savings for electric utility customers in the state could reach an estimated $62 million,” the study found.
Modeling also looked at the adoption of the emissions-reducing omnibus rule along with the ACT rule, and at a most-aggressive scenario that would see almost all new trucks being zero-emissions by 2040. Those scenarios yielded greater health and economic benefits than the ACT rule alone.
The study noted that there are currently more than 615,000 medium- and heavy-duty vehicles on the road in Illinois, ranging from heavy-duty pickups and vans to semi-trailers. The rules would cover only new vehicles, and only vehicles sold by manufacturers in Illinois, not those purchased out of state.
Kibbey explained that the ACT rule would be enforced through a system of credits: “The standard is implemented as a percentage of total truck sales per manufacturer in the state. They can buy, trade, and store credits. In addition to the manufacturers’ ability to price and market trucks in ways that increase sales, the crediting system allows for a lot of compliance flexibility. If a manufacturer doesn’t fulfill its credit deficit in a given year, they incur a financial penalty based on the class of vehicle, and the deficit rolls over to the next year. If they don’t address the deficit, they will continue to incur penalties.”
The NRDC-UCS study notes that a higher proportion of components for zero-emissions vehicles are manufactured out of the country and must be imported. The net macroeconomic benefits of a national transition to zero-emissions vehicles, therefore, depend on the extent to which the U.S. ramps up manufacturing of such components. This sector holds potential especially for states with a rich industrial history and infrastructure like Illinois, advocates say.
“This is such an opportunity for us, this is not a hair shirt,” Kibbey said. “This is an opportunity not only to add jobs in the clean transportation sector … but to be the best state in the country to drive and manufacture an electric vehicle. If we want to build them here, let’s create a market for them here.”
Last year the electric truck manufacturer Rivian opened a factory in Normal, Illinois, in a shuttered Mitsubishi factory. Rivian’s R1T electric truck produced in Normal was voted the state’s “coolest” product made in Illinois in a contest hosted by the governor’s office this year. As Capitol News Illinois wrote, the R1T is the “first electric truck in production that features four motors, eight driving modes and up to 400 miles of range on a single charge, combining off-road capabilities with the driving style of a sports car.”
The Canadian electric bus and truck manufacturer Lion Electric also has a factory in Joliet, the Chicago-area city that is also home to one of the nation’s largest warehousing hubs. This fall, the company produced its first electric school bus in the Joliet factory.
Buses would be covered by mandates in the Advanced Clean Truck rule. Meanwhile, funding from the Inflation Reduction Act and various other incentives exist for electric buses, including funds from the Volkswagen lawsuit settlement that Illinois has earmarked for electric school buses.
“We’re making [electric trucks] in Illinois,” Urbaszewski said. “The problem is we’re not providing the environment to make sure they stay here and drive on Illinois roads, providing the pollution reduction and health benefits.”
The electrification of transportation in Illinois is especially appropriate given that the state’s energy law passed last year mandates the electricity generation sector phase out fossil fuels by 2045, meaning electric vehicles would be charged with clean power.
“We’re not just going to be moving emissions around to a natural gas or coal plant that will make electricity to run an electric truck — we’re reducing in a real sense,” Urbaszewski said. “Pushing electric vehicles makes sense because it gives you added benefits to what we’re doing in the power sector.”
Illinois’ investor-owned utilities ComEd and Ameren are launching beneficial electrification plans mandated by the state’s 2021 Climate and Equitable Jobs Act, investing hundreds of millions in electric vehicle incentives and charging infrastructure. And the Inflation Reduction Act provides tax credits of up to $40,000 for commercial electric vehicle purchases and up to $100,000 for electric vehicle charging infrastructure.
The NRDC-UCS report noted that the Advanced Clean Trucks rule could mean that total electricity demand in the state increases by 1.3 million megawatt-hours in 2030 and 12.7 million MWh by 2050, an estimated total of 1.3% and 12.9% of Illinois’ electric load in those years. (The study notes that “current annual electricity sales to residential and commercial customers in Illinois total 74.2 million MWh and are projected to grow to 83.8 million MWh in 2050.”)
But that new demand would be met with clean energy and by charging vehicles at night when demand is otherwise low, advocates say.
“As long as you have the rate structures in place, the infrastructure in place, it shouldn’t put much strain on the grid,” Kibbey said. “Since the grid isn’t used that efficiently, we build it bigger than we need for most of the time. In Illinois at night, we have a bunch of nuclear energy, a bunch of wind energy” that’s not needed. “If you are charging [electric vehicles] off-peak, it not only avoids creating problems with the grid, but we end up using the grid more efficiently.”

Massachusetts climate advocates say a clean heat standard proposed by state officials could fail to create meaningful progress toward decarbonization if it overvalues alternative fuels and doesn’t prioritize equity.
“The devil is in the details,” said Amy Boyd, vice president of climate and clean energy policy at the nonprofit Acadia Center, one of several environmental groups closely following the developing state policy.
In January 2022, then-Gov. Charlie Baker convened a Clean Heat Commission to develop strategies for decarbonizing the state’s building sector, which accounts for about 40% of its total emissions. Among its final recommendations released in November was the adoption of a clean heat performance standard.
The policy would create a system similar to a renewable portfolio standard but for heat instead of electricity. Heating fuel suppliers would be required to contribute to clean heat projects, likely by buying credits generated from activities such as heat pump installations and weatherization improvements. Over time, the amount of clean heat credits required would increase.
Other strategies recommended by the commission include reforms to state energy efficiency programs, establishing a climate bank to finance heat pump installations and weatherization projects, and scaling up workforce training to ensure there are enough contractors to perform the work.
As Massachusetts pursues its target of going carbon-neutral by 2050, buildings will be a major challenge. As of 2020, more than 80% of the state’s homes were heated primarily by fossil fuels. Switching to electric space and water heating would allow them to be warmed by electricity that includes an ever-increasing proportion of wind, solar, hydro and other renewable power.
While environmental advocates have praised most of the plans laid out in the Clean Heat Commission report, they are approaching the clean heat standard with more of a cautious optimism. Most believe the standard is inevitable, but are paying close attention to the details.
“The Clean Heat Standard is unavoidable in some form,” said Larry Chretien, executive director of the Green Energy Consumers Alliance. “We want to make sure that we put disadvantaged folks at the front of the line, and we want to make sure it is legit clean heat.”
In December, the state released its Clean Energy and Climate Plan for 2050, which confirms the current administration’s vision for developing a clean heat standard, setting a target date of implementation by early 2024. Governor-elect Maura Healey is widely viewed as a clean energy champion, but it still remains to be seen how she will develop and build on her predecessor’s work.
Advocates agree that, as the program develops, it will be essential to pay attention to what, precisely, counts as clean heat. Electric heat pumps will be central to any strategy, but it is almost certain that alternative fuels will also be proposed as qualifying for clean heat credits.
Major gas utility National Grid, for example, has declared its intention to replace the fossil natural gas it currently delivers with renewable natural gas and green hydrogen by 2050. Renewable natural gas is derived from natural sources, such as composted animal manure or food waste, and the production process may recapture some greenhouse gases before they are released into the atmosphere.
However, its full lifecycle carbon emissions are highly variable and may or may not be lower than those of conventional natural gas. Further, renewable natural gas is chemically identical to fossil natural gas, so it still releases carbon dioxide when burned, leaks from pipes into the atmosphere, and carries health risks when used indoors.
Also, a recent study commissioned by California regulators found that hydrogen concentrations above 5% in the natural gas system can damage pipes and require appliances to be modified.
National Grid has confirmed its view that renewable natural gas and green hydrogen should be part of a clean heat standard, arguing that electricity alone will not be enough to decarbonize heating systems in a region that experiences as much cold weather as New England.
“As suggested in the recent Clean Heat Commission report, low-carbon fuels provide an opportunity to reduce emissions, which supports our shared decarbonization, climate action and environmental justice goals,” the utility said in a statement.
However, any clean heat credit that is given to these fuels should depend on a rigorous analysis of lifecycle emissions, said Caitlin Peale Sloan, vice president for Massachusetts at the Conservation Law Foundation. Giving too much weight to alternative fuels could slow down the needed transition to electrification, she said.
“The way they count emissions from alternative fuels — that’s going to be the ballgame in many respects,” she said. “The longer you push off the switch to electrification, the more expensive it’s going to be and the harder it’s going to be.”
Advocates also argue that running new fuels through old pipes is mostly a way for utilities to keep their distribution business afloat as the region transitions away from fossil fuels and will only slow the pace of needed carbon reductions.
“That’s going to continue to be a difficult dialogue, because of the gas companies facing the threat of stranded assets,” said Matt Rusteika, director of market transformation at the Building Decarbonization Coalition.
Another major concern is equity. Lower-income residents are more likely to live in some of the state’s oldest and draftiest buildings, while, at the same time, having less money and power to weatherize their homes and upgrade their heating systems.
“Centering equity and engagement — it doesn’t get into a whole lot of detail as to how to do that, but keeping that as a tentpole of all of our decisions going forward is crucial,” said Boyd, of the Acadia Center.
A clean heat standard can generate more revenue to tackle this problem, advocates said, but the state will need to shift some policies and priorities to use the money to the best advantage. Boyd pointed to existing rules in state efficiency programs that won’t provide services to homes that have mold or outdated knob-and-tube wiring systems. The system offers some money to help with these fixes, but the reality is that few property owners go through the full process of making the repairs and pursuing weatherization and electrification.
“So now not only is the tenant stuck with mold that the landlord won’t fix, they don’t get weatherization and still have to breathe in gas fumes,” Boyd said.
To create an equitable system, it would be important to channel money from a clean heat standard into programs to upgrade and repair these homes, she said.
A study by the Regulatory Assistance Project, prepared as part of the development of the 2022 Massachusetts Clean Energy and Climate Plan, suggests other ways a clean heat standard could promote environmental justice. The standard could include a carve-out requiring that an increasing percentage of clean heat credits come from projects serving low- and moderate-income homes, for example. Or the parties required to meet the clean heat standard could receive bonus credits for reaching a certain threshold of credits from projects supporting disadvantaged residents.
Though the proposed details are yet to be rolled out, it will be vital for any clean heat standard to be coupled with complementary programs and incentives to make a decisive move away from fossil fuels, advocates agreed.
“The clean heat standard alone is not a silver bullet,” Boyd said. “It still needs to be combined with a clear plan for pruning the gas system.”

Heat pumps, induction stoves and other electric devices are increasingly seen as key to a clean energy future. And most new homes have electric service robust enough to handle them.
But older homes were not designed for big electrical loads, and millions will require updates before those new appliances can be safely plugged in.
In states like Minnesota, where old homes with natural gas furnaces and water heaters are common, upgrading electric panels “is going to be huge,” said Eric Fowler, senior policy associate for buildings at Fresh Energy, a clean energy advocacy group that also publishes the Energy News Network. “As we move toward electrification, that bottleneck is going to be the electric panel.”
In Minneapolis alone, the Center for Energy and Environment estimates owners of one- to four-unit buildings could spend between $164 million and $213 million to improve electric service. Pecan Street, a national research organization, found at least 48 million homes nationally may need electric panel upgrades.
And while changing out the electrical panel itself is fairly straightforward, bringing an older home with 60 or 100 amp service to a modern standard of 200 amps may require more extensive utility upgrades that can rack up thousands of dollars in additional costs.
Fowler said electricians modernize the panel of circuit breakers and, if needed, conduct a “service upgrade” to improve the wiring to carry more current between the home and the electric grid. “That upgrade cost can vary wildly, especially if it requires digging underground, potentially under pavement that will need repair,” he said.
One potential solution is a “smart panel” that could help manage the load, eliminating the need for a bigger utility line. While all the electrical devices running simultaneously could overwhelm a 100 amp service, a smart panel would manage those loads to ensure that limit is never reached.
“A smart panel lets you do the first upgrade without the second — you can manage more circuits with the same amount of electricity with slight adjustments in the timing of your electricity use,” Fowler said.
The Minnesota Legislature is considering House and Senate bills offering income-eligible grants to owners of homes and apartments to upgrade their electric panels to a higher amperage or purchase smart panels. The federal Inflation Reduction Act also contains home electrification incentives that could be applied to smart panel investments.
Connexus Energy, the state’s largest member-owned electric cooperative, has been promoting the technology to members. Rob Davis, communications lead for Connexus, said a coalition of businesses and clean energy advocacy groups support the measure and asked legislators to include smart panels.
While smart panels can save money over major utility upgrades, they are still an expensive undertaking. Angie’s List reported the average cost to upgrade an electric panel is $1,230, but that sum increases considerably if the project requires a new panel, additional rewiring and equipment, switches, and so forth. Some upgrades could cost thousands of dollars, especially on older homes.
The SPAN smart panel costs $4,500, not including installation, taxes and shipping. Schneider Electric’s Square D Energy Center Smart Panel lists at $2,999 but for now is only available in California. It also has a smart panel, Pulse, which works in conjunction with other appliances as part of a home energy management system that, if fully installed, will cost around $10,000, according to Wired. Lumin’s smart panel starts at $3,150.
Twin Cities Habitat for Humanity’s Mike Robertson manages Brush With Kindness, which repairs and paints existing homes. He believes the state assistance program would help low-income residents replace aging fuse boxes with devices capable of managing new electric demands.
“Historically, with this kind of technology, the early adopters tend to be rich White people, right?” he said. “If you’re having an equitable approach to decarbonization, then you have to think about disinvested communities, communities of color, where the difference in the utility bill and indoor air quality makes a difference in their lives.”
In Minnesota, Connexus has featured SPAN at a contractor event and its staff is familiar with the product. Principal technology engineer Tom Guttormson explained that power from utilities enters buildings through panels, which redistribute electricity through branch circuits to power lights, home sections and devices.
Panels have a main circuit breaker and smaller breakers. If you connect devices that, in the aggregate, draw too much power from one circuit, then it trips the main breaker, cutting power to the entire building. Building owners can usually switch the circuit back on themselves after turning off an appliance that might be causing the problem.
Common electric panels “are not intelligent devices,” he said. “New smart panels can provide the ability to monitor and control power flowing to various devices, and even let the users see the usage with a mobile device app.”
Smart panels will help consumers take advantage of time-of-use rates by allowing them to turn off home heating and cooling, electric vehicle charging, or appliances during peak demand times, he said. Those with solar could benefit, too, by selling energy during high-demand periods.
For utilities, intelligent panels provide an opportunity to improve load management and could reduce the need for widespread and costly capacity upgrades of transformers and other grid infrastructure, Guttormson said.
“We need to work together to optimize how all this works,” he said. “These conversations are ongoing, but it is all starting. This is all new territory.”
Hannah Bascom, a vice president at SPAN, learned from working at the thermostat company Nest that consumers need time to understand how new home products can improve their lives. As more companies develop smart panels, a product category will emerge and sales should grow, she said.
“The electrical panel is very well positioned to be the central artery in the brain of the home,” she said. “You can understand whole-home energy consumption by circuit by device type, and that is rich data not from the customer experience perspective but from connecting to load management programs in the future.”
A SPAN customer in Lanesboro, a small southeast tourist outpost in Minnesota, said that after just a few months of using one, he’s discovered the data has helped him save money. Joe Deden, the founder of Eagle Bluff Environmental Learning Center, built a new all-electric home with his wife, Mary, that features Tesla solar shingles on a sharply pitched roof, a Tesla Powerwall battery, and all-electric appliances.
Deden wanted a smart panel to direct energy to heating, battery storage, or other devices and to manage loads. Offering an example, he said during a below-zero day the electric backup boiler started operating, consuming three times the energy of his air-source heat pump.
After turning off the boiler, the heat pump maintained a good temperature in the home, using far less energy. He said with the panel he could show his electrician and heating technician “that something was amiss” in the heating system that would require some adjustments. Accessing household appliance data is one of the strengths of smart panels, Deden said.
Being able to easily turn off power to his office or other parts of the home to “save a load” when not needed is another advantage. “The ability to monitor and shed loads remotely is the key,” he said. “Being able to see remotely what’s happening and to be able to control things is, to me, a great peace of mind.”

Thermo King, headquartered in the Minneapolis suburb of Bloomington, has for decades manufactured diesel-powered refrigeration and heating units for use in semi-trailers, trains, ships and buses. The company’s logo can be seen on ubiquitous “reefer” trailers being pulled along highways across the country.
As Thermo King has begun a massive transition to electrify its product lines, training employees has been a challenge — and a common one facing other companies moving toward electrification.
Last year, the company contacted the University of Minnesota’s Technological Leadership Institute to co-create and pilot a 12-credit engineering electrification graduate certificate. They believe the program offers the nation’s first graduate-level certificate specifically for electrification.
The collaboration led the state to fund the Minnesota Center for Electrification Opportunity, an initiative announced in July that will train workers in companies moving toward electrification and hybrid systems.
Jodie Greising, director of the Minnesota Job Skills Partnership at the Department of Employment and Economic Development, said that “to ensure Minnesota businesses remain competitive and to help workers retain jobs, it’s imperative that training is available to upskill and reskill workers in occupations such as technicians, electricians, and engineers to help integrate, troubleshoot, and design the systems that leverage these evolving technologies.”
Grant Ovsak, Electrification Center of Excellence leader for Thermo King Americas, helped develop the certificate.
“We’re moving towards a sustainable power source from diesel, which is the same transition as the automotive industry,” he said. “We have a large employee base that needs to be brought along for that journey.”
A division of Trane, Thermo King has more than 200 engineers at its Twin Cities campus who could benefit from the certificate. But Ovsak said he wants employees in many disciplines to take the courses.
“The certificate is not just for engineers,” he said. “We want human resource [managers] to take the courses because we’re hiring in that area, and they need to be able to talk the lingo. Even quality, aftermarket and project management employees can take the courses.”
As companies move toward electrification, all their employees must learn a new technical language that will take time and practice, Ovsak said. The courses will allow students to test batteries in a lab and see the problems, such as thermal runaway, that electrical systems potentially face, Ovsak said.
John Hurst, senior director of the landscape appliance company Toro’s Center for Technology, Research & Innovation, said around 20% to 25% of the company’s sales involve electric products, some of which have been on the market for years. Employees’ training on electrification has been primarily offered in-house or on the job.
In the past, Toro, also headquartered in Bloomington, has worked with higher education providers on training programs that proved hard to sustain, he said. Hurst said that having the university deliver the classes and offer credits should appeal to Toro employees and other companies. The ability to count the courses toward a graduate degree should also attract more ambitious employees.
“What excites me about this is it’s a pathway we can use to continually send people through year after year as we hire or retrain staff,” he said, adding that Toro plans to encourage rather than mandate the training.
Keith Dennis, president of the Beneficial Electrification League, said the confluence of federal, state and industry investments in electrification “merit more deliberate training opportunities. We are seeing some of this around the country, but it is mostly from an increased awareness of sustainability officers and from companies who sell the products themselves.”
The Minnesota Center for Electrification Opportunity is working on a long-term vision to quicken the pace of electrification, a strategy it believes will create employment growth in Minnesota and position its workforce for jobs in a variety of fields, from utilities to renewable energy companies.
The state has few options for retraining employees in companies moving to electrification. Like many states, Minnesota has created clean energy training programs at state schools for students seeking jobs in the solar, wind energy and biofuel industries.
Non-degree and certificate programs exist for electricians and people in construction through unions and clean energy training centers. Electrification courses designed for employees, however, are challenging to find.
The Center for Technological Leadership resides in the university’s College of Science and Engineering. Travis Thul, senior fellow and operations director at the Technological Leadership Institute, said the center’s role has been to work with industry to develop continuing education seminars, short courses, master’s degree programs and other training opportunities.
The electrification certificate will serve as the foundation of an eventual master’s degree, Thul said.
For now, he worries about attracting students to the program in a tight labor market where many employees are comfortable in their jobs and have little incentive to give up their nights to attend classes.
“We’re facing an unbelievable demand from the industry standpoint,” he said. “We need this talent for the United States’ economic competitiveness to be assured, while simultaneously we’re limited on human capital motivated and inspired to come and pursue these topics.”
The certificate courses will be taught by professors of practice who work at the United States Army Corps of Engineers, Toro and Polaris. A full-time tenure track professor at the university assisted in developing the coursework to reflect academic standards, Thul said.
One of those professors of practice is Toro electrical engineer Robb Anderson, who delivered the first introduction to electrification course to around 20 people, including managers, engineers and service departments who worked at Thermo King.
One challenge is keeping up with the fast-evolving field, Anderson said. Another is motivating people with full-time jobs to finish their classwork. By late August, the first cohort had a few procrastinators still filing the final papers, though Anderson felt confident they would make the deadline.
Anderson said the classes feature field trips to different companies at various stages of electrification. Classes visited a University of Minnesota wind turbine research facility, a Wabtec Corporation electric train operation in St. Paul, and Toro’s headquarters.
“Students hear about the challenges companies face, which makes the courses very real,” he said.
Hurst, a 23-year veteran of Toro, believes the certificate helps employees stay up to speed in an industry facing a monumental transformation. “I think for us, it’s an exciting journey,” he said. “I tell people walking in the door that it’s the best time to come right now because we have so much change.”
The Minnesota Center for Electrification Opportunity holds an “Electroposium” Oct. 9 at the university’s McNamara Alumni Center. The event offers training and information sessions on the future of electrification.

A year after idling its first electric buses because of reliability problems, the transit agency serving Minneapolis and St. Paul has put the vehicles back on the road and released a plan to begin electrifying more of its bus fleet.
Metro Transit’s Zero-Emission Bus Transition Plan was submitted to the Legislature in February. It calls for spending a fifth of its bus acquisition budget over the next five years to purchase more than 100 electric models.
The plan comes as Metro Transit works to catch up with agencies in comparable cities and recover from a bumpy pilot program that resulted in the sidelining of eight 60-foot articulated buses for about a year while it addressed mechanical and charging problems. The buses were placed back in service in December.
Since then, “they have been performing very well,” said Nick Thompson, Metro Transit’s deputy general manager for capital programs. The buses were built by Minnesota company New Flyer, which made significant software upgrades.
The agency’s net-zero bus plan details the problems experienced during its pilot program. The electric buses generated a high number of service calls compared to its diesel buses, but those dropped by two-thirds following upgrades and incremental maintenance.
The transit agency reconfigured heating controls and addressed wheel slippage issues. All of the Siemens chargers were replaced in 2021 while still under warranty due to technical problems that included blown fuses and premature transformer failure.
It’s been about two decades since Metro Transit introduced electric-diesel hybrid buses, which now constitute more than 10% of its 900 vehicle bus fleet. The agency started using particulate matter traps in 2007 and introduced diesel exhaust fluid three years later to reduce nitrous oxide emissions. In 2012, Metro Transit added solar to facilities and in 2016 began testing non-revenue electric transit vehicles.
The net-zero emissions report was requested and funded by the Legislature, which allocated $250,000 last year for the study. Other transit agencies highlighted in the report are moving faster on electrification. Toronto plans to add 300 electric vehicles by 2025. Seattle is aiming for 250 by 2028.
Net-zero buses will be effective in reducing particulates and other pollutants in low-income neighborhoods that suffer the highest levels of greenhouse gases and respiratory-related illnesses. But the overall impact may be minimal. The state’s transit and school bus fleet produce just .7% of the state’s greenhouse gas emissions, with Metro Transit constituting .4% of that total. In contrast, passenger vehicles, including light-duty trucks, represent nearly 58% of emissions. Metro Transit believes system improvements will help move people out of cars and onto transit.
Thompson said Metro Transit feels confident about the future of electric buses because the technology continues to improve. Stakeholders who participated in the study universally supported more investment in electric buses. “We did find the interest among riders and stakeholders surprised us, in a good way,” Thompson said.
Metro Transit’s plan focuses on using standard-length, 40-foot electric buses in core neighborhoods. The challenges during the pilot program were in part due to its use of longer, 60-foot articulated buses on a suburban commuter route that only allowed them to partially recharge their batteries after completing routes.
“Our zero-emission bus plan assumes our deployment and expansion of electric buses would be without inline chargers,” Thompson said. “We want to secure buses that can be charged overnight and then operate their routes during the day on that charge.”
Equity was one measure for route selection, as was proximity to five bus garages with chargers. A new garage opening next March near the agency’s headquarters near downtown Minneapolis will be able to accommodate several electric buses serving the core cities.
Riders will not see electric buses on express routes or bus rapid transit corridors with articulated buses, Thompson said. Those routes may have electric buses in the future, but they will not be a priority for now, he said. Two upcoming new lines connecting St. Paul with northern and eastern suburbs will use electric buses.
Still, some advocates want faster adoption of net-zero buses. Sam Rockwell, executive director of the transit advocacy organization Move Minnesota, questioned why the agency did not commit to replacing all buses with electric models or consider trolleybuses operated by overhead electric lines. The agency “shouldn’t be buying diesel buses anymore,” he said.
One big factor is funding. The Legislature has not decided how much money Metro Transit will receive to help pay for the new buses. Gov. Tim Walz has recommended $3.2 million in his proposed state budget, enough to pay for just four electric buses. State Rep. Frank Hornstein, a Minneapolis Democrat, said legislators will propose more money, but the amount has not been determined.
“I think we have a broader challenge of transit funding and making sure we can build for a 21st-century system that gets people where they want to go, when they want to go, and quickly,” Hornstein said.
The plan puts the agency in a position to win federal funding under last year’s bipartisan infrastructure law, which includes $7.5 billion for electric bus expansion to transit agencies with an electrification plan. “We’re ahead of other markets because we’re done and ready,” Thompson said. In addition, he said the agency expects prices will drop, just as diesel hybrid buses did after the agency first began buying them 20 years ago.
Metro Transit has already ordered eight Proterra 40-foot buses using federal grant money. The agency has also applied but has not received approval for federal infrastructure funding to buy electric buses from the bus manufacturer Gillig. The agency plans a general procurement for electric buses later this year, allowing manufacturers to compete against one another for a contract that will last several years.
Metro Transit must also retrofit bus garages with chargers, an expensive proposition. Xcel Energy, the agency’s partner, needs to ensure the electric grid is ready to serve those charging bays. However, national data on electric buses show they get an equivalent of 16.5 miles to a gallon compared to 3.8 miles for a diesel fleet.
Joshua Houdek, senior program manager for land use and transportation at the Sierra Club, said he had been hopeful that problems in the initial electric bus pilot would not dissuade the agency from further investment. “The Metro Transit struggled with the first buses but got them working and back on the road again,” he said. “The experience taught the agency that, for now, the best buses that work for the system will be shorter buses running on tight urban routes that serve a lot of riders. This is efficient and equitable.”
Alireza Khani, an associate professor at the University of Minnesota’s Department of Civil, Environmental, and Geo-Engineering, recently helped author a study of bus electrification in the Twin Cities. The results showed the five most beneficial routes roughly matched Metro Transit’s approach. The routes had among the highest ridership and traveled through diverse, low-income communities. “I think it makes sense to prioritize those neighborhoods and buses that run in those neighborhoods,” Khani said.
Thompson said much still needs to be learned as electric buses move into the system. For example, the agency wants to continue to understand how bitterly cold weather impacts performance. In borrowing a practice from Duluth, the state’s first transit agency to have electric buses, Metro Transit will use natural gas heaters to avoid draining the batteries to heat buses, he said.
Mechanics must also be trained to work on electric buses, which has been a good problem to have, he said. “We have a workforce that actually just wants to work on the vehicles and we see [electric buses] as a way to attract workforce,” he said.
Thompson said net-zero buses are reshaping how Metro Transit powers the region’s bus transportation system and with that challenge will inevitably come hiccups that will lead to more operational changes. “This still is a technology in its infancy and is evolving very quickly,” he said.

A lack of inventory from auto manufacturers and a shortage of fast-charging options in rural areas are among the factors slowing progress toward Minnesota’s state government fleet electrification goal.
The Minnesota Department of Administration set a target in 2020 to make 20% of its vehicle fleet electric by 2027, part of an overall strategy to reduce state fleet fossil fuel consumption by 30% by 2027 from a 2017 baseline.
The state would have had to replace more than 400 gas vehicles with electric models per year since 2021 to meet that target, but state officials contacted by the Energy News Network were unable to say exactly how many electric vehicles the state has purchased overall. The Department of Transportation, a leader in electric vehicles among agencies, has 14. The Department of Natural Resources has four.
“We’re moving forward slower than I would like,” said Holly Gustner, fleet and surplus director for the Department of Administration.
The state has more than 15,000 vehicles, with the most progress on electrification in the light-duty category, which represents a third of the vehicles.
In 2021, the state’s light-duty category was dominated by flex-fuel vehicles capable of running on high ethanol blends, accounting for 55%. Hybrids followed at 22% and regular internal combustion engines at 15%. The rest were electric, plug-in hybrid and diesel-run models.
The state’s plug-in electric, hybrid and flex-fuel vehicles contributed to a 17% drop in emissions from light-duty vehicles in 2020 and 2021, according to administration data.
Vehicle cost plays a role when agencies make purchasing decisions, but the total cost of ownership favors electric. While electric vehicles command a higher initial expense, electricity costs less than gas, and the cars require less maintenance, said Marcus Grubbs, director of the Department of Administration’s Office of Enterprise Sustainability. Agencies also like the advantage of having fully charged vehicles available every morning so staff will not have to refuel during the day.
But agency leaders say many state vehicles have no easy electric replacement option yet, and manufacturers of those that do — typically cars, pickups and SUVs in the light-duty category — are often months behind in deliveries.
Automakers have been prioritizing states such as California and Massachusetts, which have requirements to make electric vehicles available. Gustner said one factor expected to increase Minnesota’s access to electric vehicles is its adoption of clean car standards, which have helped increase supply in other states as their demand increased. The Minnesota Pollution Control Agency adopted the California-developed standards last year and has been finalizing rules.
“I think once that rulemaking is completed, and we actually sign off as one of the clean car states, I think we’re going to see more cars coming this way,” Gustner said.
Grubbs said the government uses vehicles in such specific ways that finding electric replacements has not been easy. As an example, he pointed to a new electric transit van that “looked great” until he discovered it had no lift for disabled passengers.
“Availability has been the greatest challenge,” said Jed Falgren, state maintenance engineer with the Minnesota Department of Transportation.
His agency may have the biggest obstacles in meeting the state goal because light-duty vehicles are only 13% of its fleet. The rest are medium- and heavy-duty vehicles — including 800 snowplows — which currently have no practical electric replacement models available, he said.
Falgren said the agency has spoken to trucking manufacturers about replacing heavier vehicles with models fueled by hydrogen or compressed natural gas, which pollute less than plows now being used, he said.
New, greener snow plow models have begun to come onto the market, but how well they work remains a question. For example, a recent test in New York City found electric snowplows “basically conked out after four hours,” according to a city official there.
“Our plow trucks have got to run and be available to run 24 hours a day,” Falgren said. “So there’s a lot of technological nuts to crack before we can go widespread on some of those [vehicles].”
The Department of Natural Resources wants to add to its four-vehicle electric fleet and has ordered more. Aaron Cisewski, fleet and materials manager in the DNR’s Operations Services Division, said the agency covers a huge geographical area of Minnesota, with state parks and other offices spread far apart. Employees have expressed concerns about range reduction caused by cold weather and trailer towing, which the agency does a lot of in state parks.
The department has deployed Chevy Bolts in state parks, where they operate in a limited area and are recharged nightly, he said.
Gustner said developing a charging network for state vehicles has been a challenge. Parts of the system are robust, such as around the Capitol complex, where 65 chargers operate. But outstate Minnesota is a different story even as the state continues to add chargers in more rural locations.
Fast chargers are becoming a priority because most state workers will be “topping off” their vehicles rather than needing a full charge, Gustner added. But for now, the charging infrastructure in some areas “does not enable the flexibility [of long-distance travel] right now, or doesn’t exist, or isn’t perceived to exist,” he said.
Minnesota is better poised, despite the weather, to take advantage of transitioning to electric vehicles than some other states. The state government could replace more than half of its light-duty vehicles, a better average than Colorado or North Carolina, according to a National Renewable Energy Laboratory 2022 study of state fleet electrification.
Using 2-year-old data, the study found the driving range of electric vehicles on the market can meet 93% of the state’s light-duty needs. The study projected a $4.7 million savings over the lifetime of vehicles and a reduction of more than 10,000 metric tons of greenhouse gases.
While the new clean car standards are expected to help, Brendan Jordan, vice president of transportation and fuels at the Great Plains Institute, said Minnesota’s state government could have an easier time procuring electric vehicles if the state had additional policies that incentivize their purchase by residents and businesses.
“Other states offer incentives on the medium- and heavy-duty side, which we don’t offer,” he said. “Companies look at what kind of policy environments are in place when they’re deciding where to ship the cars.”
The Minnesota Future Fuels Coalition, which includes the Great Plains Institute and Energy News Network publisher Fresh Energy, has been advocating for the recently introduced Clean Transportation Standard Act that would require the carbon density of fuels to decline to zero by 2040.
There’s also legislation that would “establish a preference” for electric vehicles for the state’s fleet. Other preferred vehicles include hybrids and those that can run on cleaner fuel. The law would solidify a preference already practiced by agencies.
Should either or both bills pass, they would give the state government an extra benefit of removing some obstacles from electric vehicle acquisitions, Jordan said.
Either way, preparations continue for an electric future. With assistance from Xcel Energy and a consultant, MnDOT created a software tool that uses data captured from its vehicle fleet to determine suitable electric replacements, he said. In addition, plans are emerging for training mechanics to work on light-duty electric vehicles.
And the agency must get used to paying more upfront for electric vehicles while understanding the cost of ownership will be less in the long run.
“MnDOT does not mind being on the leading edge of technologies,” Falgren said. “The leading edge is a good spot to be.”

As a historic 10-day heat wave threatened brownouts across California last summer, a small San Diego County school district did its part to help: It captured excess power from its electric school buses and sent it back to the state’s overwhelmed grid.
The eight school buses provided enough power for 452 homes each day of the heat wave, and the buses were recharged only during off hours when the grid was not strained.
California energy officials have high hopes that this new power source, called bidirectional charging, will boost California’s power supply as it ramps up its ambitious agenda of electrifying its cars, trucks and buses while switching to 100% clean energy.
Gov. Gavin Newsom called two-way charging technology a “game changer,” saying “this is the future” during a speech last September, about a week after the heat wave ended.
This year, a bill already approved by the state Senate in a 29-9 vote would require all new electric cars sold in California to be equipped with bidirectional technology by 2030. In the Assembly, two committees approved the bill earlier this month and it is now under consideration by a third.
This two-way charging has big potential — but also faces big obstacles. By 2035, California expects to have 12.5 million electric cars on the road, but it’s an open question how much California can rely on them to feed the grid. Automakers say the technology would add thousands of dollars to the cost of an electric car, and California’s utilities are still sorting out how to pay ratepayers for selling them the kilowatt hours.
The ability to use electric cars, trucks and buses to feed energy back into the grid would be especially helpful during peak times for energy use, such as heatwaves. But relying on vehicles as a year-round power source may not be practical — at least not yet.
“It’s a great idea conceptually…but we haven’t had the time to flesh out the details of what needs to happen for California to be able to power itself on electric vehicles,” said Orville Thomas, state policy director for CALSTART, a sustainable energy nonprofit.
“It should be on the menu of options that California has. Is it going to be the number one option? Definitely not.”
So far, its use has been limited in California. Pacific Gas and Electric has a pilot program — the first in the nation — that lets up to 1,000 residential customers with bidirectional chargers sell power back to the utility. Some school districts also are experimenting with it.
Only about half a dozen electric car models currently are equipped with bidirectional capabilities, including the Hyundai Ioniq 5, Nissan Leaf and Ford F-150 Lightning. Tesla announced recently that all its models will have it by 2025.
Electric vehicles convert one type of energy, alternating current electricity, into another, direct current, which is stored in a battery. Bidirectional charging means that an electric vehicle can convert the energy it has stored in its battery and send it to other sources, such as home appliances or back to the grid.
Willett M. Kempton, a University of Delaware professor who has studied bidirectional charging for more than two decades, said the vast majority of the time a vehicle is parked and not using electricity.
“Five percent of the time you’re using the car and you want to have enough energy — electricity or gasoline — to get to where you’re going and back. But most of the time, it’s just sitting there and some other use could be made of it,” he said.
Kempton said these vehicles, properly managed, could be sources of reserve energy, supplanting backup sources that burn fossil fuels.
Gregory Poilasne, co-founder and CEO of Nuvve Holding Corp., which sells electric fleet charging services, said a big challenge is that cars are unreliable energy assets. “At any time, somebody might come in and unplug the car,” he said. But he added, as the technology becomes more reliable and affordable, bidirectional cars and fleets should increase.
In Denmark, bidirectional charging earns electric vehicle fleet owners who sell power to the grid $3,000 per vehicle a year, Poilasne said, adding that this reduces the average total cost of electric car ownership by about 40%.
But citing the high cost, automakers oppose the Senate bill that would mandate the chargers for all new cars sold in California by 2030. It would increase the average cost of an electric car by $3,700, according to an opposition letter written by Curt Augustine of the Alliance for Automotive Innovation, which represents General Motors, Ford and other major auto companies.
About $3,000 of that cost would be adding battery capacity to meet warranty requirements, while other costs are for hardware and software.
“This technology is a competitive matter between vehicle manufacturers and should remain that way,” Augustine wrote. “Not all customers will see an advantage of bidirectional charging, and therefore, should not have to pay more for a technology that they will not use.”
Thomas of CALSTART agreed, saying it should be optional.
“There might be a situation where there are people that want to do it and will pay a little extra for a car that is bidirectional, but there will also be people that just want to use a vehicle for driving,” he said. “Do we raise the price of electric vehicles for everybody?”
But Sen. Nancy Skinner, a Democrat from Oakland who authored SB 233, said she wants to ensure that automakers don’t reserve the technology for only their higher-end models. She said since the relatively affordable Nissan Leaf has it, it can be widely available.
Skinner said all consumers would benefit from the technology by selling energy to the grid or using the energy in emergencies. But she said another important reason is that it could end reliance on diesel generators during power emergencies like during wildfires.
“If you have an EV you don’t need that diesel generator,” Skinner said. “Why would we want to encourage diesel generators? They’re extremely polluting.”
Jeffrey Lu, an air pollution specialist with the California Energy Commission’s vehicle-grid integration unit, said the state is working with owners to identify the best times to charge — called smart charging — to protect the grid. Bidirectional charging takes the concept a step further, he said.
The Energy Commission is not yet ready to say how reliant California will be on bidirectional charging to provide sufficient power and meet the state’s 2045 mandate for carbon-free electricity.
“We’re fairly early in this process. California is very committed to load flexibility broadly, but where that load flexibility specifically comes from, how many megawatts or gigawatts are coming from any particular kind of resource? We’re working on that,” he said.
California’s utilities are running pilot projects and studying how bidirectional charging might work and how electric car owners could be compensated for selling energy to the grid.
The California Public Utilities Commission has studied the issue for more than a decade, said spokesperson Terrie D. Prosper, including funding pilot projects and establishing two working groups.
Last year many utilities signed a “Vehicle to Everything” memorandum of understanding with car manufacturers, state agencies, the federal government and others seeking to accelerate all aspects of bidirectional charging.
Southern California Edison, which serves about 5 million businesses and residences, wants to go beyond using bidirectional charging as just an emergency backup.
Chanel Parson, Edison’s director of electrification, said the utility is working on a rate program that would allow customers to sell their power back to the grid every day of the year.
“By selling it back to the grid when our rates are more expensive, then that actually helps reduce customers’ energy bills. And it could be so economically attractive that they’re actually making money,” she said.
Pacific Gas and Electric, which serves 5.5 million electric customers in Northern California, said it is aggressively looking to build what it calls a robust vehicle-to-grid-integration. It has partnerships with BMW of North America, Ford Motor Company and General Motors exploring bidirectional charging.
The utility last year launched the nation’s first bidirectional charging pilot available to residential customers, offering up to 1,000 customers $2,500 for enrolling and up to an additional $2,175, depending on their participation.
The Los Angeles Department of Water and Power also is conducting a pilot project using a small fleet of its Nissan Leafs. The utility hopes the technology will eventually provide power during peak load times.
“Five years is definitely within reach,” said José María Paz, the utility’s project manager for vehicle-to-grid integration. “Technology is advancing quite fast.”
The electric school buses at the Cajon Valley Union School District in San Diego County are among a number of school district pilot projects in California. Experts see school buses as a good option for two-way charging because they have set routes and are often parked during peak load times between 4 p.m. and 9 p.m.
Nationally, Nuvve has about 350 school buses connected to its platform.
At the Cajon Valley district, eight electric buses sent 767 kilowatt hours of power back to the grid during the heat wave between Aug. 17 and Sept. 9, according to Nuvve.
Working with Nuvve, the buses power up when energy is less expensive, said Tysen Brodwolf, the district’s transportation director. Brodwolf said there are still several quirks, including the chargers not communicating properly with the grid or someone improperly plugging in a bus.
“But we’re getting there every day,” Brodwolf said. “We’re working through all those bumps and obviously, when you take on a pilot project, you have to take that into consideration that things aren’t necessarily going to go smoothly.”